Biguglygremlin

I disagree with all of you ......... just because! :P

And I want to know what those other 99 things are that I must be suffering from ........ but I can't find a list. :(

And while we are at it ......... who ate all the hors d'oeuvres?

I won't win any votes for my contribution here but it seems to me that although the effort and motive may be commendable this approach is tantamount to grabbing an unwanted tool by entirely the wrong end.

Why would you want more women to have this accursed disorder?

Surely this is not an effort to increase influence or funding?

If women want another disorder wouldn't it be more appropriate to start with abnormal and problematic symptoms and proven or provable risks and not with the diagnosis process.

The existing diagnosis process presumably relates to actual symptoms and potential risks. What basis is there to argue that the same factors do not apply to women?

Obviously if the methods and parameters and thresholds are adjusted we could prove that all primary school children have severe Apnea but to what purpose?

I know my queries are provocative but I can't help thinking that this is all upside down.

Yes SlowBro, SleepDent is a professional and much appreciated in this forum.

Now that we are all agreed, can we skip straight to the hors d'oeuvres?

Then you can list the well over 90 possible disorders that I might have. :)

Well this is a fun thread and less tactful that is normally tolerated.

Sorry SleepDent but despite my respect for your beliefs, I'm fully behind Sierra in this one.

Yes, on a bunch of technicalities and rare improbabilities, there are some good arguments for doing a sleep study in a clinic.

In a perfect world I'd like to be under 24/7 surveillance by every specialist known to modern science ......... just to be sure! :)

BUT in the real world of complex issues, limited resources and conflicting domains Sierra's arguments make sense.

Most patients are still alive and not yet dependent on CPAP when they initiate enquiries regarding Apnea and, presumably, they are under separate medical supervision for any other illnesses, the APNEA in itself is not usually life-threatening at this stage so I think the implied peril might be a bit overstated.

The APNEA investigation process can take months to implement effective treatment, during which time the patient should be following up on any medical issues with someone who is actually qualified to deal with them.

Anything that simplifies the APNEA process and facilitates it for a wider range of potential sufferers warrants fair consideration

Anyone who implies that cost doesn't matter must surely be delusional or overselling something.

As I understand it the home study equipment is improving and presumably will continue to improve. Generally it does what it is supposed to do.

The Home Sleep Study was only ever used as a general indicator which should also be true of Sleep Clinic results. Abnormal studies in abnormal circumstances can never be a true indicator of normal responses. Nothing to do with APNEA, IMO, is an exact science.

I too did a home sleep study and for me it was effective and convenient and as to Sleep Clinics, I know of many who have expressed bitter disappointment and disdain or similar negative views regarding their experiences there.

Unfortunately I don't have Sierra's faith in the machine to diagnose and treat APNEA but surely the sleep industry must believe in the machines or they shouldn't be selling them.

Arguments and squabbles over technicalities and territory are fun, but it's the results that matter.

My crystal ball is broken regarding the future of APNEA treatment but, in the past, a Home Sleep Study and the supervised application of a CPAP machine delivered the fastest, most convenient and least expensive results.

From my first mention of APNEA to my doctor, to being issued with a CPAP machine, was about a week and cost me $80 plus a small contribution to help offset the cost of the machine. (We have a health system in Australia that still works, despite constant pressure to adopt American Health policy methods of privatisation, price fixing and market manipulation.)

If it had been much more trouble or more expensive I would not have bothered.

Well done on finding a path through it all AmusingBarracuda and thanks for letting others know.

Someone has to ask the hard questions and dare to challenge the system.

I don't think it's wrong to question the parameters of an illness if it helps us understand the relevance of the data.

As Sierra implied we only have 3600 seconds in an hour.

Presuming that to exhale and inhale takes 2 seconds that brings us back to a maximum of 300 events per hour.

From what I understand many of us have events that last for 20 seconds and some even 50 seconds or more.

If we rework the numbers on 20 second pauses with a 2 second breath then it reduces to around 160 events per hour.

It's likely that a 2 second breath is not common and most would perhaps manage a few breaths between events and probably breath for the same duration as they pause which, for 20 second events, would bring the number down to 90 events per hour.

I suspect that mild or moderate cases are a slightly different process that results in breathing winding down to a pause every 2 - 10 minutes but being largely sustainable in the interim.

Of course these are only numbers and guesses, and even if by some fluke they might seem to make sense, nothing to do with individual humans is consistent or predictable.

This is a subject that I have been wondering about for some time now, not just because I have a permanent trench across my head from the mask strap that I have worn for 15,000 hours but I also have a CT scan that shows an obvious gully in the bone across the top exactly where the strap goes.

I was not aware of this for the first 50 years of my life, so I can blame it all on the CPAP right?

The following points might seem unconnected because they probably are unconnected.

Yesterday when I was young so many happy songs ........ Oops I digress.

It seems to me that when we were younger the flesh on our skulls was thicker and more resilient. Dents were easily formed in that soft flesh and just as easily faded.

Most of us had no particular need to map the topographical features of our skulls and a thick layer of pliable flesh and an even thicker forest of hair concealed most of the hills and gullies.

I think that as we age the flesh on our skulls becomes thinner and less resilient and the tracks of our mask straps become almost permanent.

So can I blame the CPAP for the dent in my skull?

Unfortunately not, because I think that as the hair and the scalp both got thinner, that gully, which is probably not uncommon amongst adults, became more obvious but, in all likelihood, it was there all along.

So my theory is that in most cases normal processes of ageing have revealed pre-existing anomalies in the skull shape and lack of resilience of the scalp has embedded the path of the straps, perhaps even in the same place, but these factors are most likely unconnected.

Hi jaypeecee

You could browse and Wiki and make notes and print lots of stuff and cross reference and dabble and guess and gradually form a kind of comprehension but I reckon the best option would be to do something like this: Uni course

I didn't really read the fine print on that link but there are courses available that are not that demanding and would actually qualify you to work in the industry if you have the means and the enthusiasm.

Of course they won't teach SleepyHead specifically but the official sleep industry software must work on related principles.

I had a CT brain scan a few days ago and, yes, they found nothing. :O

Now, back to the subject, whatever that was ........

Oh, right!

That scan. It clearly shows the "deformity" (I really don't like that word! :( )

Which leaves me with three possible conclusions:

1) The skull shape was already there but remained unnoticed for 55 years.

2) CPAP mask straps can compress or deform the shape of the skull.

3) I have an overactive imagination and none of it is real.

Should we take a vote on it? :)

Hi Sleeptight

I didn't realise that CPAP went back that far.

I would also like to know if it is possible to escape from the machines after a protracted period of usage although, like yourself, I can't even nap without one.

I doubt that I could reasonably expect to escape from my cursed machine but I believe the question is important and should have been researched and strategies developed and implemented a long time ago, but in an industry that is all about immediate sales and control there is no perceived benefit.

Not sure how the machine itself would answer it Sierra. I doubt that an automatic machine would wind itself off entirely and even a low pressure could make the difference between breathing comfortably and not. Perhaps I am missing something here.

Probably the only way to really know what your current sleep status is would be to cease using the machine and do a sleep study without a CPAP but there must be some aspect that I just don't understand because I suggested doing that in a sleep clinic here and they looked at me like I was a basket case.

Anyways, the airflow is just the physical aspect of it. I wonder what level of dependence is Acquired on a psychological and emotional level especially when so many CPAP users seem to be dealing with (or end up acquiring) anxiety issues.

I have tried to raise this query before from a number of different angles but this forum seems focused exclusively on supporting CPAP usage, which may be a worthy cause, but the result is that serious doubts and escape options are largely ignored and effectively taboo.

The irony of it is that serious questions and diligent research that helps us attain comprehensive answers and increased understanding usually leads to new fields that can also be exploited and converted to revenue.

Avoidance of these kinds of queries and the issues underlying them is just short term thinking.